What exactly do we mean by standards-compliant site?
As moderator, I thought it would be wise to understand how WE define it...I would apprciate your input.
To me, the primary elements are:
1) Alt-text for all images
2) CSS-based for ALL presentation
3) RELATIVE text sizing
What else would you add?
As moderator, I thought it would be wise to understand how WE define it...I would apprciate your input.
To me, the primary elements are:
1) Alt-text for all images
2) CSS-based for ALL presentation
3) RELATIVE text sizing
What else would you add?
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 8:12 AMStandards-compliant sites are sites which conform to the X/HTML specification declared in the doctype, and the W3C CSS spec, as far as I'm concerned. The accessibility specs are too vague and inaccurate to really be considered a measurable standard, and your points #2 and #3 are really arguable, it depends what school of design you come from. There is nothing in the spec that mandates relative text sizing, and many professional web developers feel (i'm one of them) that this should be the browser's domain (see IE7 / Opera's zoom functionality). I personally go for CSS for all presentation, and this is indeed the standard for XHTML, but it's perfectly possible to build HTML 4 documents using HTML attributes for some styling. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 12:51 PMpoints well taken, David. Thank you.
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 10:02 AMDefinitely has to pass the validator at W3C and have valid CSS. Anything else is irrelevant regarding compliance with the standards. Item number one in your list will be covered if the markup passes the validator as it is required. Item two is the goal of future specs, seperating content from layout. Currently mixing is allowed but many designers think keeping them seperate is good design and the only way to do it. The third item is a function of accessability. One way to allow this as gracefully as possible is to use ems and not override a users CSS with !important.
As far as what anyone would add, I would kill the moron that invented flash. Talk about inaccessability! -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 12:19 PMFlash, like any other technology, can be implemented in an accessible manner. The problem really lies with the Flash developer / designer community, who don't place any importance on it. Flash is the best tool available for highly interactive content, and it has unrivalled installation saturation.
It's really one of those things that just turned out wrong. Flash's real power would shine in enterprise web apps which could benefit from rich data visualization. Unfortunately, because of the a/v-centric authoring interface, it's never caught on with corporate developers. Hopefully this will change this year with new development tools in the pipeline from Adobe.
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 10:10 AMI would add:
* Valid XHTML & CSS markup, including properly nested and closed tags
* Avoidance of presentation-type tags, such as tables, when not presenting tabular data
* Clear separation of markup of content from design presentation (similar to your rule #2)
* Ability for site to be fully used (minus obvious media limitations, such as sound or video) on a text-based browser or reader for the blind. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 3:54 PM"Ability for site to be fully used"
Which is one reason not to use flash. The bandwith and annoying motion are other reasons. Since I have flash block enabled, I see many sites that use flash for link buttons for crying out loud! I an sorry, but to me is just ignorant.
I agree that screen readers need to see the site and allow the user to navigate and use the site as a sighted person would. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 9:49 AMYou know, with the latest release of flash, it's actually FASTER to load a flash page than an HTML page...
the annoying motion is, well, a matter of personal taste, and i agree that many flash sites are tasteless, but that's not a reason to dismiss flash.
flash is just the best way to do animation and video on the web (and is now working its way up in the application realm too with actionscript 3.0 being a complete object oriented language). though, i still feel that silly animation on buttons, especially with sound effects, is annoying. flash itself is not an evil being. it's those damned idiots who use to it create gaudy garbage and need to be strapped into a chair with their eyes held open a la clockwork orange while listening to korean pop music and watching thier own annoying flash animations over and over. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 10:43 PMFlash, like any other tool, needs to be used properly and responsibly. Flash *can* load faster than HTML, but it really depends on the complexity of the HTML/CSS versus the size of the content a Flash program is trying to D/L. And, of course, load time means nothing if you constantly have to watch things swishing from one side of the screen to another every time you click on a navigation link. When I'm browsing, I typically want data. An interesting, animated presentation is cool the first visit, but after that, there had better be a way to quickly access content without having to spend 30 seconds navigating through animated screen changes to a 3rd- or 4th-level-deep page. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 9:44 AMyes, flash should be used responsibly. html can be abused (quite easily too), as one finds out by visiting almost any myspace page/teenage girl's homepage.
i believe in minimalism in design. yes, i might use some slick animation in places, but transitions should never last more than a second and shouldn't be detracting from what's going on. the power of flash is, for example, that you can do ansyncronous database calls and multi-page forms without a page refresh. it's all about minimizing the interruptions in user experience. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 11:29 AMChristophe, I agree with you mostly, but ...
"the power of flash is, for example, that you can do ansyncronous database calls and multi-page forms without a page refresh. it's all about minimizing the interruptions in user experience."
this power is not limited to flash, as it's perfectly possible to do this with HTML & Javascript (these days, commonly referred to as "AJAX"). -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 12:38 PMyes, i was going to mention ajax....
the thing about flash, is that you can do in 10 minutes an application that would take hours in AJAX -
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Unsu...
Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 2:00 PMeven using some framework like prototype?
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 3:41 PM"the thing about flash, is that you can do in 10 minutes an application that would take hours in AJAX"
Maybe if youre a flash head.... I am not.. i hate working in flash. Im not disounting it or saying iot sucks or it can be used in awesome ways, im jsut saying i hate working in it. However i do know JS, the DOM and XHTML pretty well. And with libraries like protoype an jquery i might not be able to beat your 10 minutes but i can do it in an hour or less.
However, i am really interested in Flex and that mauy be the thing that spurs me into bothering with flash myself at all.
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 4:09 PMreally? i think that has more to do with your relative skillset than any features of the language. i can code up Ajax sites pretty quickly, but don't ask me to do anything in Flash, it'll take forever :)
Additionally, Flash's XML parsing functions are supposedly very slow so it's very difficult to do any enterprise level apps with it. which is way the grand 'we've all seen it a million times' showcase Flash app for RIAs is still that stupid hotel registration widget. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Fri, January 12, 2007 - 9:29 AMactually, it does have to do with the features of the language. it's just fewer lines of code. i may have been misleading, as flex does a simple RSS reader in about 10 lines of code. i tend to think of flash and flex interchangably (because flex compiles into flash).
you can check out a whole bunch of flash RIA apps at the flex site. a click and drag shopping cart is one example. -
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Unsu...
Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Fri, January 12, 2007 - 1:31 PMyahoo maps is quite impressive too :)
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 1:17 AMWell for starters, I always get a kick out of how these conversations go. You try to have an interesting discussion with web programmers by asking an open question and at least a few of them will always reply with something to the effect of "here's the one and only answer, problem solved."
I think that "standards-compliant" is generally interpreted to mean w3c compliant, but that the points made about presentation and accessibility are good ones as well. But there's standards and then there's standards:
1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model
2. those morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable
There's always the great vague fog of "web standards" that tend more towards philosophy. Accessibility is part of that. I try to write my sites as screen-reader-friendly as possible, though I admit I haven't been using relative font sizes. Mostly that's just because I haven't bothered to troubleshoot them and establish a personal standard (definition 1). My current goal is to become an expert at using CSS to design wap-friendly sites. Anyway, I think my guiding principles are the following:
-Accessibility (screen readers, relative font sizes, wap alternatives)
-Graceful degradation
-Separating content from layout
-Usability (good UI and a minimum of annoying crap--sorry <blink>)
-Minimalism, flexibility and reusability of code
The last is definitely a personal tic. I'm a clean-freak. And I was raised by German engineers. I like things to be efficient, to do exactly their job and no more, and a minimum of redundancy.
Anyway. I think all that stuff's fun to talk about too. Otherwise what is this tribe for? W3C standards and browsers that blow them off. Let me tell you how much I hate Mac Netscape 7...
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 9:26 AMI have to agee with david here. When we say "Standards Compliant" as a feture or build spec of a site it means just that - compliant with the standard for its xhtml/html doctype (and keep in mind this is going to vary) and the CSS specification. Thats all it means, thats all it can mean.
Now as Kelly kind of got in to, on top of that designers and developers have thier own sets of personal/wrokgroup/etc.. standards that may be layerd on top of that - and thats just fine. Now on top of that you may be required to adhere to some sort of accessibility specifications (which may or may not be the ones crafted by the w3c workgroup), but thats not necessarily part of being "standards compliant". thats a whole other issue. Same thing with relative font sizes... thats a philosophy/best practice/goal of certain elements of the design/development/usability community but it has nothing to do with being standards compliant - using pt or px measurements for type isnt going to get fialing grade in a validator. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 10:31 AMWell now, I intended to spur some discussion...not start a war here...
I will concede that valid XHTML is of primary importance.
Part of why I asked this question was to see how different members of this group viewed this issue of compliance. Thank you all for your insights. Let us consider this more of a "What does compliance mean to you?" type of question, and not quite so much the letter of the law, okay?
--Russ
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 10:51 AM"Let us consider this more of a "What does compliance mean to you?" type of question, and not quite so much the letter of the law, okay?"
Quite a few of us here agree that the standard is mostly black and white. The interpretation can vary among user agents, but the standard is the standard. It is valid markup or it isn't. So, therefore, compliance means (to me) passing validation at the W3C. The other side of the coin, besides being excellent in your craft, is that at least for now, crappy markup throws internet exploder into quirks mode. That opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 2:24 PMAgreed with Bjorn. That's why they're called "standards". Even though they're not. Standards, that is. They're actually recommendations. And the group handing out those recommendations definitely has an agenda all it's own. But that's a whole different topic...
And Russ, if you concede that valid XHTML is of primary importance, are you saying that web pages served as HTML 4 with the appropriate doctype are not standards compliant? I'd definitely disagree with that. There are also a fair number of folks who would say that valid XHTML code delivered with the MIME-type text/html isn't valid, either. I think they're full of shit, personally, but there are plenty of them out there. -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 4:44 PM"That's why they're called "standards". Even though they're not. Standards, that is"
Yea! I have been calling them standards as in "standards compliant" for so long I forgot they are indeed recommendations!
Funny thing, the main reason I make sure my pages validate is so I can say they validate. Also, it makes it easier to fix them for internet exploder.
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 12:02 PM" Well now, I intended to spur some discussion...not start a war here... "
IF you think this is a war... Dont come to Web-Design.tribe.net :-)
Anyhow.. if thats what you meant then you asked the question improperly. As bjorn says.. a standard is a standard. If youre compliant you meet the things set forth by that standard, and you may go farther. But because you or others have chosen to go farther doesnt make it a part of the standard. Thus, ther eis no room for "your idea of the tandard".
Now if what you want are personal or develment team best practices, quirks, petpeeves, goals, methodolgies, etc.. then that we can all throw our 2ยข in on and what not... But that is much more likely to start a war than your initial question ;-) -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Sat, January 13, 2007 - 2:09 AMYeah this is definitely not war. But web developers are apparently a rather contentious crowd (never saw that one coming). If you like peace (as I'll admit I do) you can ask for opinions or you can ask for facts, but never traverse the line between them. For the record, I took the Women From Venus stance and assumed that your post actually said "As my first post as new moderator, I'm going to attempt to ask a nice open-ended question to define our terms and what we're here to discuss." So I answered that. But you know how it goes. We nitpick. There's a difference between "web standards" and "standards-compliant" in terms of the topical direction we'll go.
I'm glad to see the Flash debate sparked though. I'm in phase 2 of web standards bigotry. The first stage was being a huge XHTML/CSS nazi and hating Flash. Now I'm trying to be open-minded and focus on the real values at the root of the debate, and not the religious wars. Not sure what comes next. Activism maybe?
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Unsu...
Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 12:25 PMi wonder why nobody mentioned RSS yet?
i haven't been using it myself first but now it's hard to me to imagine using internet without syndication.
IMHO every non-static website should have RSS feeds implemented! (as a standard) -
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Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 10:48 PMWell, RSS isn't required for viewing a website. It's just a nice standard way of providing a stream of data.
Why do you want to have an RSS feed for every non-static page? So you can know when it's been updated? I suppose that could be mildly useful, but if a page is non-static, wouldn't you be coming back fairly regularly anyway?
It is an intriguing idea though. In thinking about it, I can kind of see it as an interesting method of providing data. Why else would you want it? -
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Unsu...
Re: What does standards-compliant look like?
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 11:26 PMi think visiting some website to check if there are any updates is big waste of time (at least i find it this way). why would you want to do that if you can be simply notified about any new content with nice short description of it, so you can decide if it's worth going read the whole article at all. it's extremely useful when you're trying to follow let say 50 or more websites providing content or blogs (but it's worth doing even if you just follow couple of them). Just imagine trying to check all of those website for updates! while using RSS you just let the computer do the "dirty" work for you, that what it's meant for a far as i'm concerned.
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